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Classes
Sept 30, 2019 12:10:45 GMT -5
Post by Jess on Sept 30, 2019 12:10:45 GMT -5
Please organize all discussion about classes here!
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Classes
Oct 5, 2019 14:18:20 GMT -5
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Post by brett on Oct 5, 2019 14:18:20 GMT -5
On the subject of 'channel' and 'auto-channel,' do we really need it to cost the additional MP? I feel like condensing 'channel' and 'auto-channel' would help alleviate spell packet usage, while also allowing for more interesting takes on spell usage.
Additionally, it is already balanced by requiring a 10 syllable casting line in all circumstances, and allowing resistance via 'Parry' (SP usage), 'Negate Magic,' blocking the spell physically by blocking the weapon strike, while physically blocking a spell packet does not block the spell.
If appropriate, we could move this ability to 'Feats' as a passive, cost free ability such as 'Wrath,' in which it does not make it feat level, but opens its usage.
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Classes
Oct 5, 2019 14:24:46 GMT -5
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Post by brett on Oct 5, 2019 14:24:46 GMT -5
I would like to see us open the weapon proficiencies more. As it is, a heal-spec wizard gets nothing from proficiencies if they choose Mage/mage (which is the ideal class choice for this build).
Solutions: 1) Allow 'Heal' to affect wand damage. 2) Allow proficiency to be chosen, rather than tied to both classes Ex. M/r, M/w, M/m can all access Spell Blade, Eldritch Master, or High Magus.
This may require some limitations to avoid frequent usage of Large shields, such as giving Pure Class archetypes a bonus of the current M/m, R/r, and W/w with an additional choice from above.
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Classes
Oct 7, 2019 11:32:10 GMT -5
Post by Jess on Oct 7, 2019 11:32:10 GMT -5
Regarding Channel I am not opposed, and we will visit it when we settle into the rules and see if there is a hard reason not to do so.
Regarding Proficiency As in any system, some of these things are in place so that all (INSERT CLASS) are not identical. Yes, it would be nice if everyone got access to everything, but we end up with characters who all look identical. Some amount of restriction is in place simply so that the different classes have different and visible abilities. In some cases, some of the abilities get overpowered if they can be used in tandem with other class abilities.
While we can look at each of the above, the proficiency status of weapon classifications is likely to stay the same, to avoid both over-powered side issues, and to keep things from becoming too muddied and overlapping.
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rosenthingy
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Character: Nezhit, Sledge, Witold/Lethorian, Genbo/Vestige
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Post by rosenthingy on Oct 7, 2019 14:58:55 GMT -5
Strongly against adding heals to wand damage, because that makes heal-spec mages better DPS than archers or gunners. Super longevity and staying power from buffed heals, with high base damage weapon options with no SP/MP cost? No thank you.
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Alexei
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Classes
Oct 7, 2019 17:31:41 GMT -5
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Post by Alexei on Oct 7, 2019 17:31:41 GMT -5
I think it is important that each class has a special weapon proficiency that suits the archetype of that class build. If anything, I would like to see it be a little more restrictive to really promote a thoughtful approach to mechanical character design.
A good example is the warrior/warrior big shield that promote the defender archetype and plays into the defensive skills and feats that are available for warriors.
It would be interesting to explore a mage healer archetype now that a circle healer is out of the picture as a build focus.
Maybe it would be worth exploring alternate advanced proficiencies. Eg.
Eldritch Master - Mage/Mage - You can apply spell damage boosts to your wand as well OR you can use your wand to rally an ally
This way, a Mage/Mage build can focus on healing and supporting allies and still take advantage of an advanced proficiency.
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Classes
Oct 7, 2019 18:47:46 GMT -5
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Post by brett on Oct 7, 2019 18:47:46 GMT -5
I think it is important that each class has a special weapon proficiency that suits the archetype of that class build. If anything, I would like to see it be a little more restrictive to really promote a thoughtful approach to mechanical character design. A good example is the warrior/warrior big shield that promote the defender archetype and plays into the defensive skills and feats that are available for warriors. It would be interesting to explore a mage healer archetype now that a circle healer is out of the picture as a build focus. Maybe it would be worth exploring alternate advanced proficiencies. Eg. Eldritch Master - Mage/Mage - You can apply spell damage boosts to your wand as well OR you can use your wand to rally an ally This way, a Mage/Mage build can focus on healing and supporting allies and still take advantage of an advanced proficiency. Strongly against adding heals to wand damage, because that makes heal-spec mages better DPS than archers or gunners. Super longevity and staying power from buffed heals, with high base damage weapon options with no SP/MP cost? No thank you. My main concern is that heal spec mages get nothing from the proficiency of the class pair they most benefit from. Something like what Alexei just brought up might work, or something similar. I just don't like dead space on a common build.
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Hilary
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Character: Kagome
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Classes
Oct 10, 2019 19:27:29 GMT -5
Post by Hilary on Oct 10, 2019 19:27:29 GMT -5
Agree with Brett and Alex.
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mbrian
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Character: Admiral Jameson Stormgale, Ex-Marshal Quinn
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Classes
Oct 11, 2019 7:25:16 GMT -5
Post by mbrian on Oct 11, 2019 7:25:16 GMT -5
What about some mage class options that are healing focused? Like restore someone to full with one casting? Or giving your heal the ability to remove detriments again. Small things like that.
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Classes
Oct 11, 2019 10:11:53 GMT -5
Post by Jess on Oct 11, 2019 10:11:53 GMT -5
Brian: What other options would you recommend?
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mbrian
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Character: Admiral Jameson Stormgale, Ex-Marshal Quinn
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Classes
Oct 11, 2019 11:14:54 GMT -5
Post by mbrian on Oct 11, 2019 11:14:54 GMT -5
I'll keep thinking on them, but here are my previous two ideas, and some new proposals for mage class choices, in rules format:
Deep Healing - You may choose to use Heal to cure a point-level detriment instead of HP.
Healing Surge: You may spend an additional MP to Heal a target to full HP instead of your normal amount.
Restoring Spirit - When you use Heal on a target, you may immediately use your Inspire on the same target for free.
Protected Protector - You may use Shield or Heal while in a shield without dropping it. You may not use any other ability. (I suggest making it in the same level choice block as Mobile Shield for balance reasons, or making them incompatible. A high HP, slow moving heal battery trudging along the battlefield would be kind of broken.)
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Alexei
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Classes
Oct 15, 2019 21:26:05 GMT -5
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brett likes this
Post by Alexei on Oct 15, 2019 21:26:05 GMT -5
I like those ideas. It is a nice way to promote the healing mage without getting back into the same issues that were such a problem for the broken but mending healer. I really like the free use of another buff when healing. It allows a more nuanced build for healer characters. They can be more involved with the Mods instead of being the living rally point for the fighters, and relegated to the backfield.
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Hilary
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Character: Kagome
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Classes
Oct 20, 2019 20:19:11 GMT -5
Post by Hilary on Oct 20, 2019 20:19:11 GMT -5
I was thinking it would be cool to have specialized options for any of the classes...could add some interesting build options, maybe a bonus level once a PC maxes out primary and secondary class levels to 5, they can then access a special ability. So a Mage/Mage who is level 5 for both could access either a special healing ability, a special bonus to damaging spells, or something similar...same with any of the combo builds.
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mbrian
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Post by mbrian on Oct 21, 2019 12:01:15 GMT -5
I like that idea! Some kind of powerful archetype ability and reward for investing in both of their classes? They'd have to be pretty good for the 3000 XP needed to get there, but I like the idea.
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Classes
Oct 21, 2019 13:15:27 GMT -5
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Post by brett on Oct 21, 2019 13:15:27 GMT -5
I really like the idea of a bonus for reaching level 5 with something. I was suggesting something like this under paths as well. A specialization or mastery level ability. It's definitely something interesting to look into.
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Post by Jess on Oct 28, 2019 15:19:10 GMT -5
I am disinclined to want to add another level of power to the rules system... It invites Power Creep. People already get super powerful by the end of a 2 year campaign, and I feel like it makes it difficult for NPCs to create threat without also making it impossible for new players to be useful.
This event, for example, as we are at the end of a campaign: without sending out each NPC swinging for regular 2 damages, or with 50 hit points, we could not have them stand long enough, or be threatening enough to PCs, without crushing the two new folk who I am CERTAIN felt like they could not help much.
What I would prefer is more options lower down in the levels, rather than adding more power later. There are only 2 years of build in a campaign to work with, and there is only so far I would like people to Min-Max before the game is unwelcoming to newcommers.
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Post by Jess on Oct 28, 2019 15:22:52 GMT -5
As it is, we statted a bit too high for my liking during that push on the town, and could not make any headway, aside from killing the new players at least 3 separate times in that battle. To me, as a GM, having to super-power the NPCs to even be a minor threat gives me concerns about the level of power attainable in the rules. Raw power is not the goal, details and interesting power is.
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Post by JoeFro on Oct 28, 2019 15:33:42 GMT -5
I do not like the idea of Beyond Level 5, because let's just call it what it is: Level 6.
Already, players who are brand new to out game, and have come in late campaign, are wildly outclassed by long-timers. It becomes a careful game of balancing on our part, where we need to make encounters feel challenging to players equally, while not totally sailing past anything a newer player could deal with.
Let me give you an example: Hide. Our NPCs are RARELY ever given out Hide above level 3, because it is a narrow build option that, if you don't have it leveled, prevents you from interacting with a part of the game. So we keep it low enough that it is reasonable for someone to combat it. But if it's 20 events into a campaign, someone is gonna have Search 5. So, we need to gently pepper in creatures that can challenge that level of Search. The player still wins, but feels rewarded for having been the one to have just the right skill.
But if we start making it so every NPC has Hide 5, the players who spent all of that XP won't notice, since they can still beat it every time, but the player who hasn't had the time to build to that level just doesn't get to interact with that part of the game.
Power creep is so often missed by the people who are benefiting from the creep. I'm gonna be the bad guy here, though, and just kill this idea at its conception. Level 5 is the highest, and the reward for getting both of your paths to 5 is that you now have two powerful abilities at Level 5.
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Classes
Oct 28, 2019 16:28:30 GMT -5
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Post by brett on Oct 28, 2019 16:28:30 GMT -5
Definitely good points. I think I would have been in the same boat as the two newbies were if I didn't actively fill a role that didn't exist by taking 'Scrolls 5' as Lucian, as well as some strong defensives. I couldn't stick out the fights this event, and made myself useful by buffing the people that could.
That being said, I'm happy doing that (and also dying and getting rezed to kill my friends, because fuck those guys!) but that doesn't mean everyone would be. I like the idea of specializations getting extra bonuses, but not more than having a game that is welcoming to newcomers.
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Post by Amy on Oct 28, 2019 16:42:10 GMT -5
So my input is the same as Jess. We don't want to reward people for being one-trick ponies. We want people to spread their XP out. The problem is when characters become to powerful it becomes hard to balance encounters so EVERYONE has fun and can feel important and needed. Imagine being that normal guy in the Olympics. Its disheartening and you feel unwelcome and unlikely to return. It's a recipe for games to end. It's the whole reason we put campaigns in and a forced reboot so we don't have that issue.
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mbrian
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Post by mbrian on Oct 29, 2019 7:58:03 GMT -5
All fair points. I will retract my support of even more powerful abilities and continue trying to think of lower level "neat tricks."
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rosenthingy
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Character: Nezhit, Sledge, Witold/Lethorian, Genbo/Vestige
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Classes
Oct 29, 2019 12:42:03 GMT -5
Post by rosenthingy on Oct 29, 2019 12:42:03 GMT -5
Copied from FB: Mage +1 to detriment only affects whirlwind and exhaustion right now. It being the 'utility mage' choice instead of damage or heals would make it natural to extend the benefit to all enhancements/detriments and things like gust and bolster.
Alternately, add the damage to gust steps and exhaust (since heal hits bolster already) and then find a new class menu choice besides the +1 detriment. 3rd take: have it hit crafts you use, but not make. Cause youre giving it your own magic oomph.
+1 dmg adding to detriments as an idea, yes exactly. + to crafts used rather than made has a bit of nuance. First, it doesn't replace the professional +effect. Second, it doesn't detract from any craft ability or other build as it is only additive. Third, if it were to replace professional +effect it helps balance the economy where professional exists. Fourth, it's flavorful as being a magical conduit, artificer, etc. The point of economic balance is something I've run into a little since profession was introduced. That is that certain crafts are very hard to sell without profession bonuses, like alchemy or ammunition, because somebody with the profession will outshine you immediately at the same or better price. If they're impossible to sell, then the use of those crafts is just for self consumption and thus removed from the overall economy.
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Hilary
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Classes
Oct 29, 2019 18:55:25 GMT -5
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Post by Hilary on Oct 29, 2019 18:55:25 GMT -5
I was actually thinking what would be cool is if you allowed a player who maxed out both class levels to then access a lower level power from one of theaw classes as a bonus.
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kurt
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Post by kurt on Oct 31, 2019 15:35:34 GMT -5
Maybe a feat with prerequisite Level 5 in your primary class path that allows you to purchase a bypassed secondary class ability only available once with a cost based on the level of the secondary class skill taken.
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Jim Pidd
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Classes
Oct 31, 2019 22:33:40 GMT -5
Post by Jim Pidd on Oct 31, 2019 22:33:40 GMT -5
From my standpoint "power" isn't what the focus should ever be on but "utility." So the idea of once you hit level 5 in a class being able to "buy more into your class" would be an option if it was only for utility things were marked out in a special way. I know this over complicates it to a degree and there is probably a better way, but my solution here would be expand out lower level abilities to have more utility options and then allow them to be taken at a later point. Or just put these bonus utilities out as feats to support what people pine for and pre-req them to properly meet what it's meant for.
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Hilary
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Post by Hilary on Nov 1, 2019 8:12:31 GMT -5
Yes, this is what my original intention was. I think it then gives more options for individualized characters, and gives more leeway for builds. As far as power concerns go, I feel more frustrated by the number of high powered magic items that seem to exist in the game, especially ones that can be bought with IP. If you do not have the ability to gather as much IP as other players, or have not been around as long to bank a significant amount, it can seem really unbalanced as a new player coming into the game. Also, perhaps something to consider is if a newbie joins the campaign halfway through or later, they don't start with only 1000 XP to spend, but are given a bonus 500-1000 to be able to create a character that doesn't feel useless compared to the older characters.
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kurt
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Post by kurt on Nov 1, 2019 13:41:54 GMT -5
Love the idea of giving late campaign players an XP boost. Great way to keep them within the curve!
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rosenthingy
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Nov 1, 2019 16:06:40 GMT -5
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Post by rosenthingy on Nov 1, 2019 16:06:40 GMT -5
Late campaign *starting* characters. Not old characters suddenly getting 1k/event.
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Classes
Nov 1, 2019 16:36:59 GMT -5
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Post by brett on Nov 1, 2019 16:36:59 GMT -5
Yes, this is what my original intention was. I think it then gives more options for individualized characters, and gives more leeway for builds. As far as power concerns go, I feel more frustrated by the number of high powered magic items that seem to exist in the game, especially ones that can be bought with IP. If you do not have the ability to gather as much IP as other players, or have not been around as long to bank a significant amount, it can seem really unbalanced as a new player coming into the game. Also, perhaps something to consider is if a newbie joins the campaign halfway through or later, they don't start with only 1000 XP to spend, but are given a bonus 500-1000 to be able to create a character that doesn't feel useless compared to the older cbharacters. Maybe an equation like a percentage of the max that could have been received if they went to every event? Make it scalable. Maybe 50%*[events]*500? Play with the numbers or whatever, I don't care. This way they don't get a massive bonus, but they're never so far behind that it's frustrating for the newbies and hard to balance for the GMs/NPCs?
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